Episode 7 – UX/UI Design in Web3

Paul:

Hello everybody and welcome to the RunningWeb3 podcast where we talk about running a web3 or crypto business. I’m your host Paul Lambert, and today we’re joined by Avani, the CEO of Matcha Design Labs, which is a web3 UX agency. Her team has been designing in the crypto space since 2017 and has worked with some notable clients, including Solana and Aptos Labs. Recently, her team Tap Cash won first place in the mobile track for Solana’s Grizzlython. In addition to running her agency, Avani is a business coach for other agency owners. She’s on a mission to help service-based entrepreneurs get more clients and scale sustainably to six figures and beyond. As always, you can find her links in the show notes.

Hello Avani and welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you on here. Today we’re talking about a specialty of yours, UX and UI design, especially in web3. To start us off, I wanna talk about the catalyst for this episode. One of the issues that we’ve seen come up, I’m sure this has happened in web2 for forever, cuz I’ve seen some truly atrocious websites. Um, but one of the pushes recently in web3 has been for better user experience. Um, right now there are a lot of people with really great ideas and the problem is they, they create this product and no matter how good the product is, they can’t get people to use it because either it’s laid out in a way that immediately turns people off and they, they just leave immediately. Or because it takes so many different steps to get through to actually do what they want to do.

Um, and so people have started calling for it a little bit more now for there to be better, um, user experience with everything so that all these great ideas can actually be useful to people. Um, and I know that you’ve been doing UX and UI for, for a little while now, um, with your own company. I’ve, I’ve worked with your team, um, in some capacity and you guys have been awesome about it. And you guys just made the switch into, uh, focusing on web3 in the past couple of years. So I was curious what, what similarities and differences you see going from the challenges that you face in Web2 with some of your, uh, clients versus the challenges that you see for customers that are focused on web3?

Avani:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So it’s interesting because in some ways we see the same challenges. They’re in product design at the very, very basic level. If you strip all the, all the different, um, outside pieces away, we’re still trying to get a user to do a task, to have some kind of solution outcome resolution. And at the basic level, we try to treat things web3 versus non web3 the same cuz we are using a similar design process. We are using, uh, similar ways of operating, getting user feedback and so on. However, I think the trickiness comes with web3 where there’s just a lot more complexity that hasn’t yet been explored that hasn’t even, we haven’t even met the, met the problem yet or know about the problem yet, or the problem exists. And it hasn’t even been noted that that is a problem.

It’s just like, hey, that’s how web3 works. You know, get a, get a key. Hopefully you keep your key safe, but that’s how web3 works, right? So the, the differences I would say is the maturity of the space. So web2 product design has been around, there are so many great patterns and, you know, still, still patterns where there are things that are being developed and being designed and being invented. But with web3, that’s even more so because it’s so new. The technology hasn’t been around long enough to have this never ending pattern library of like, this is how we do an onboarding, or this is how we allow users to create their crypto account. Right? There aren’t, there are some, and you can collect them, but they’re not all good <laugh> and there’s no one saying like, Hey, this is, this is working well, this is not working well.

So it’s a matter of, at, at their base level they’re the same, but the differences come in the maturity of the space and who’s working on, on the problems as well. When you look at web2, you look at who’s working on these problems and you see there are a lot of designers in this space. There’s a lot of people who are doing user research, they’re creating design systems. There’s all these specialized roles even within just design mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I look at web3, that doesn’t exist yet. They’re like, oh, it’s great if maybe you even have a designer on the team. There is no, let’s hire a user researcher. Let’s hire a production designer. So if you look at the complexity of the design teams, they’re also pretty nascent. And um, that’s another indicator that these spaces is just still so new. So those are mm-hmm. <affirmative>, those are just a few different things. There, there is a lot to do, which is exciting. Uh, but it’s also, I would say daunting at times because if no one’s done it before, there’s no place I can go look and say, Hey, there’s some inspiration I can draw from. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no, we were just kind of trying different things and showing it to people, testing it, getting feedback and continuing that loop, continuing that cycle. Cause we’re discovering the patterns, which is one of the biggest differences.

Paul:

Yeah. That’s the, the double-edged sword of, uh, kind of leading the charge on this front is, it’s great cuz you get to discover all these new, uh, data points and all these new ways of, of helping these clients achieve what they’re going for. But also you, all of the, the past data that you would normally use for it is kind of, uh, maybe not obsolete, but doesn’t directly relate in the same way that you might get with some of these more established and mature industries.

Avani:

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting. I, I really believe that user experience design, understanding how to create good products, that is going to be what, that is the barrier to scalability. When people talk about scaling the web3 space or mm-hmm. <affirmative> getting the next billion users onboarded, you’ll hear are a lot of people saying that. And that will happen when the UX is ready. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Paul:

Yeah. That’s a, a common problem that a lot of people see is they, they have this drive and this growth mindset of we want to get all these people on board. Um, either because as a company that’s good for us, obviously, or because of some social passion involved or whatever the case may be. But they’re so eager to jump into these things that they don’t think about things from the, from the user perspective. They go at it and they know the, the program inside and out. They know the applications inside and out. And so when they’re creating it, they go through and say, oh yeah, it’s super easy to use. I just do this and this and this. And they don’t see the little quirks that maybe could be improved with somebody who’s more familiar with design. They don’t do the, the user testing that they need in order to understand where the issues are that they can address and make it a lot easier to onboard those users.

Avani:

The, the user testing part’s interesting, actually. You see that there are a lot of great communities, but the other thing is that not everyone knows how to get user research or how, how do I go out there, even though I have this great community to talk to and people who are very engaged, they, they wanna build a thing together. How do you actually leverage that in a way that is going to help you the most? And that’s another thing that not everyone has cracked yet. Not everyone has those feed back loops installed yet.

Paul:

Yeah. We had a, the same problem when, uh, I was working with Ultra Coin on our original, uh, design. We went through and we created this thing and we were like, Hey, this is awesome. This is what we want. Let’s go ahead and put it out there. And we did. Um, and it worked well enough. It was an mvp. Um, but then rather than doing user testing and understanding how we could improve it, it was a lot of let’s make this change, wait for our entire community to react whether this is good or bad, and then make changes on that. And it was a much more drawn out process. Obviously no matter how you do it, there are going to be iterations and constant improvement, but not going through somebody who was a lot more familiar with the, the best ways to do user testing, I think slowed us down quite a bit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, just because we, instead of having a, a nice streamlined process, we went through a whole bunch of, uh, steps that were lengthened quite a bit, um, as we waited for feedback basically, rather than proactively going out and talking with the people that would be using it every day.

Avani:

Yeah. And, and it is tricky if you’ve never done it before, if you ha don’t have a process, we’ve done, I think we’ve done hundreds of usability tests mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, talk to, to hundreds of users in usability tests by now. And when you do it that many times, you start to get like a rhythm and you’re like, okay, this is, this works, this does not work. Let’s, um, we wanna talk to six people at least we don’t need to talk to 20 people. You know, little things like that. And you’re like, okay, this is the smallest amount of work I can do to get the most amount of results. Effective feedback to then reincorporate into the product. Um, but I mean, honestly, you asked your feedback and that itself is your head of the game. <laugh>

Paul:

<laugh>. Well that is, uh, both, um, it makes me glad and also a little bit sad for, for the rest of web3 <laugh>, but like you said, we still, everybody’s still kind of trying to figure out how all this works. Um, and that actually leads me into my next question, which is I’ve, from my own personal experience talking with people who are trying to start web3 businesses, there’s kind of two categories of people. There’s, uh, people who have experienced starting companies in web2 and now want to move into web3 and are new to the space. And the second group is people who have been involved in web3 for at least some amount of time, have some experience with it, but have never worked on the business side of things. Maybe they were, uh, an employee somewhere else and they decide to jump in and and create something of their own. Do you see a difference in, um, how companies approach design if they are coming from web2 into web3, or if they are web3 natives, if you will?

Avani:

Yeah, that’s an interesting question because I’ve, I feel like I saw a tweet somewhere talking about this exact thing and how I think in the tweet it was saying, you know, coming from having a background in web2, understanding maybe you were even around during the.com era mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you have this like history in technology and then you’re coming to web3. That could be helpful because you’re coming in with organization and skills. Like you’ve been in the industry for a while, you know how to lead a team, you know how to sit down and build a business. But there’s something, there’s like a special factor when it comes to web3 and it’s this, you’ll hear people, you’ll hear people say like, oh, I read pilled this person, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> meaning like, they drank the Kool-Aid or they’re in, they’re now, they’re now a crypto degen.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so there’s this, all of that is, those are all different words to describe this. I would say obsession, this feeling that I’m part of something bigger. I don’t wanna do anything else. I don’t wanna think about anything else. I’m here for the love of the game. And the thing is, when people and, and someone who has a really vast web2 background can also be in it for the love of the game and they can, they can come in, but there’s this, you know, new age type of founder that maybe doesn’t even have a lot of experience. Mm-hmm. Perhaps. Mm-hmm. They are, you know, new to working. And for them it’s almost easier to come in with that enthusiasm and excitement cuz they don’t have anything holding them back <laugh> or perhaps they’re younger, I don’t know. Um, but what’s cool is when they’re doing this for the love of the game, they al they almost start to have this innate connection with users mm-hmm.

<affirmative> and it’s hard to explain. It’s, it’s not something that can always be taught. I think it can’t, it can be taught, but if it’s, if it’s just kind of a built in connection, like I know this product, I know my user’s problem at the very core because I used to be that person. And knowing that user’s life, you know, what programs are they using or what are they thinking about, what keeps them up at night? The founders who are able to keep that in mind and they’re just super obsessed with their problem, that’s the founder that is make going to be able to make the right first step forward in the user experience design part of their, their work, their product. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it’s like I said, it’s hard to say like, this is how you get become obsessed with your product. You just have to be <laugh>.

Yeah. You have to be, you have to be doing it for the love of the game. And again, not to say that there is a, there is a person who’s coming with lots of experience that cannot, I mean, I’ve seen both sides of things. We’ve worked with all types of different founders. Um, but when, when you’re coming in and you kind of don’t have anything holding your back, don’t have any, you know, baggage or anything that from past experiences mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there is a little bit of, hey, let’s just try it and see what happens. And that <laugh> lightness that comes to the situation is really great because it helps them know that they’re not gonna be the best at it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they might be able to hire a team like ours or hire a designer that they hire in house and then they’ll be able to trust that person knowing that, yeah, I know the user at a very deep level, but I also know that they need to have someone thinking about this in ways that I cannot. So

Paul:

Yeah, definitely there’s, within web3, there’s a core tenant of like being community focused and having that mm-hmm. <affirmative> hyper fixation on, on the community and on your users, I think makes a, a massive difference that I’ve, uh, seen in, in a couple different companies, um, to the point where traditionally people think of starting a business as having this idea and then going out and validating it as a second step mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Whereas in web3, a lot more people are joining in these communities. Like you said, they’re getting red pilled, they’re getting indoctrinated into the space. Um, and they join these communities and they’ll see a whole bunch of different people complaining about a similar thing and they go, huh, maybe I can fix this. So it’s almost a validation before they have the idea and then move forward with it. And that connection with the community and being able to go back and say, Hey guys, I, I did this thing that I think might solve these problems you’ve been talking about. Can you give it a try and have that almost one to one. It maybe not necessarily advocates, but having people that are already really invested from step one, I think makes such a difference. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in how people approach, um, building up the, the product.

Avani:

Yeah. It’s actually interesting you say that. It’s the idea of going to the community and saying, Hey, let’s build this together. We’re doing this together. And that makes them feel like they’re even more bought into what you’re creating, which is cool.

Paul:

Yeah. A hundred percent. Within web3, obviously it has some challenges that are a little bit different and some that are the same, like you said. Um, are there common themes that you see that are, that are coming because of these differences and the, like, core differences within the way that it’s approached where, um, if maybe they’re starting with the community and the like relationship with them is too close and they aren’t able to see the bigger picture or anything like that in the design space where maybe things that wouldn’t be missed in a more traditional, uh, web2, uh, process are missed Within web3,

Avani:

I’ve seen builders get really attached to one solution mm-hmm. <affirmative> and that can get them into trouble. So they see a problem or what they think is a problem and they want to go solve it, and they come up with a solution. And often this is a side effect of not actually talking to users in the first place and knowing, understanding is it a problem? What do you, let’s explore the problem, let’s learn about the problem, then let’s find solutions to the problem. Instead, they pick a solution, they’ll say, okay, we’re gonna do this. And they go after it. And then once they’re too far down the line, they’re not willing to come back and reevaluate. It’s too scary. You have too much to lose at that point. And so I’ve seen that a few times, a handful of times in the web3 space.

And the reason I kind of hesitated is because I believe this thing that I’m just talking about right now is not unique to web3. And I’ve seen it in web2 as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there is a few, it’s about ego. It’s about, can I put my ego aside knowing that I am super obsessed with this problem, this idea, this thought. I’m willing to go dive deep in it and learn everything I can about it. And I can still put my assumptions, my ego to the side and know that if I actually go talk to whoever I need to talk to the US end user, the customer, and learn that the assumption I made is not correct, I’m willing to come back and change it to adjust it. So I think that’s a big piece that, a pattern that I’ve seen a few times.

And another thing that I’ve seen is web3 is cool, there’s this huge community online. You know, crypto Twitter is awesome. There are so many people ex Yeah. It’s huge. And they’re exchanging great ideas. It’s amazing. It’s so cool that you can connect with people in this way and dive deep into an industry and at the same time it creates an echo chamber. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which can be dangerous. Meaning when I’m talking to teams and talking to founders who are working on a problem, they end up thinking about the problem in the same way as the next founder. Cuz they’re all talking about the same thing. Their brains are paying attention to the same pieces of information, and that’s getting translated into their product, which is okay. It’s like a good thing for us to know about the capabilities of AI and how we can integrate it.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I’m not saying we should ignore that. What I’m saying is just because an idea is floating out there doesn’t mean we need to take it and make it our own. We need to understand at the core what are the problems we’re solving for the user. We’re making things for. So if I’m making a better web3 wallet for maybe I’m making better wallet for Solana applications, for example, just picking something out of thin air. Great. Let’s not jump to solving this by fighting a new way of account abstraction. Let’s think about what exists out there today. What are the problems? Why don’t people like those solutions? What are they doing instead of those solutions? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So continuing to ask these questions and creating this really rich understanding of the end user, and they call these personas. We can, we can build out a persona and almost create a profile of somebody saying, these are things they love, these are things they hate.

This is what keeps ’em up at night. These are the apps they use. They’re on Discord all the time. These are the apps on the front screen, front page of their phone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, these are the website tabs open on their computer. Do they use TikTok? Do they use Twitter? Do they use Instagram? Um, what is their world like, what is this person’s world like? And then using that to create a hypothesis or a set of hypotheses, then using that to brainstorm solutions. So rather than taking the solution and making it fit, can we work from the problem upwards?

Paul:

Yeah. It’s, it’s something that I’ve seen in quite a few groups that I’m a part of where it’s that same thing. And I actually posted about it a few weeks ago talking about the echo chamber. That tends to form because you seek out other like-minded people and it can be really good for helping you problem solve. If they have a, a similar way of thinking and you’re trying to solve a problem that they have related experience in, it’s amazing. And it’s great to be able to talk to other people that can help you build that, but it can be very limiting in that you, you sort of build it up to a point where everybody’s saying the same thing or agreeing with you, or even the disagreements are very similar to what you already have. And it’s hard to break out of that, um, mindset.

And that’s why having outside people can be so, so valuable. Or one of the reasons that having mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, an outside agency or a designer come in and kind of challenge those assumptions and say, Hey, let’s look at these personas that we’ve built and understand what, what’s the solution that actually makes sense for these people rather than, like you said, trying to kind of force it in. But I know that could be a very challenging mindset to, to maintain. Um, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how, as, as you started going into this journey, how did you build up that, uh, mindset to make sure that, especially as you’re going through and, um, for instance the the wall on Solana, um, as you go through and you’re talking to multiple projects that are building these similar applications, um, how do you make sure that you’re kind of challenging your own, um, ideas and your own solutions instead of falling into that, I guess one layer removed echo chamber?

Avani:

Yeah, that’s a good question. We do our best to keep the goals in mind front and center, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we use, we use Figma to make our designs and we also use Figma to brainstorm to kind of mind map things to create user flows. And we’re always pinning, um, like little virtual post-its of what is the outcome we want and almost doing our own project management inside Figma itself. And that’s huge because then we always have something to point to in conversation with clients saying, Hey, but remember this is the thing we’re wanting to do, so what is the North Star we’re wanting to create? And these are often goals or objectives that we have created based on conversations we’ve had with them. So we’re just repackaging the client’s words. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so that’s one way we do it. We kind of have this thing that we’re looking at <laugh>, kind of like if you’ve seen Ted Lasso, they have the little, he has a little believe banner in the top of the locker room mm-hmm.

<affirmative>, and like, that’s, that’s what they’re all looking at. The little sign that says believe. So in, in a similar way, that’s what we’re doing with big Inside Pig mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s one way that we’re keeping ourselves honest. The other way that we’re keeping ourselves honest is if I need to go create a wallet, I can look at 10 different send transaction flows mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I can find a solution by looking at other wallets and say, Hey, these are other wallet. This looks good. Let’s, let’s emulate this. But instead, can we take it a step further, instead of doing what everybody else might be doing already or looking at what everybody else is doing already. Can we take inspiration from other industries completely unrelated mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So looking at, I’ll give a an an example of sending an invoice. So sending a transaction and sending an invoice, they’re kind of different.

It still has to deal with money, but maybe there’s a way that I can send an invoice inside FreshBooks or QuickBooks or whatever I’m using, and there’s something there that is, that is delightful, it’s easier, or somehow it feels so smooth. What is it about that experience that I can bring into this send transaction flow that we’re creating for this Solana wallet? So let’s think outside of the box, let’s look at other industries, other spaces for inspiration and, and think about different ways that a digital experience could be, and it could be even non-digital. If you get inspiration while at a gas station or while, you know, signing up for a parking meter. Actually, I, I often get design inspiration with, while experiencing different parking apps and parking meters. Um,

Paul:

I never would’ve expected that to be a, a source of inspiration for it. Yeah.

Avani:

I mean, it could be inspiration or it could be like, Hey, this is a problem, this is a problem. Reminds me of this other problem and here’s a solution. Yeah. So it’s this idea of can you look for solutions in places you wouldn’t expect them? And we actually just have a, we have a Slack channel where we’re throwing our ideas in all the time mm-hmm. <affirmative> that we see in our day-to-day lives so that when we have a problem with a client, we can go into the Slack channel and pull from that like, treasure box of ideas that we’ve been collecting. So that’s a system that we’ve created so that we aren’t falling into the trap of, Hey, everyone’s talking about it, everyone’s doing it this way, let’s just do it this way.

Paul:

Yeah. I, I think a lot of people when they think about design work, they think more on the like, graphic design side. They think, okay, well let me tweak this color to have it be optimal for the user. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And while that’s a part of it, I, I think most people often myself included, miss the creative problem solving side of things. Um, where it’s, how do we approach this in a completely different way or how can, like you were talking about taking inspiration from a parking app and putting that into, um, the design of an exchange, a crypto exchange or something like that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it’s that creative problem solving mindset that I think would really set people apart in terms of how they’re able to approach it and, and the, um, how far they’re able to go with helping clients, uh, redesign things to be the best version of it that they can.

Avani:

Yeah. It’s, things can come to you in unexpected ways, unexpected places. And design is more than how does it look? It’s also how does it work? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because if it doesn’t work, then how does it look? Doesn’t actually matter, <laugh>.

Paul:

Right. I know a lot of people, like I said in the, the beginning of the episode, a lot of people are interested now that there’s more and more calls for it about getting into, um, the design side of things. Either people that have experienced doing different design work, um, in web2, or people that have been in web3 for a while and are now interested in jumping in and helping solve one of these major hurdles that is, um, keeping the industry from maturing. Uh, do you have any tips for people who are interested in joining on this journey as web3, UX and UI designers?

Avani:

Yes. I think sooner than later is better. So <laugh>, you need to start plugging into the community. And the best place to start is Twitter, following designers, working in web3 designers thinking about web3. And then the second thing you need to do is go and experience the web3 applications that are out there. Go buy some soul, go buy some Bitcoin, buy some ETH or Aptos, and start playing with the apps that are being built, the defi and exchanges the wallets. Understand the landscape that you’re dealing with, and you’ll start to see patterns. You’ll, you’ll start to see people who are doing it well, people who aren’t. How’s the exchanges? How do the exchanges work? How do they make sure that I find transactions? How does signing transactions work? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how does seeing my balances work? How do I stay safe? That’s a big problem in this space.

You know, scams and fishing is a huge deal. So all of these problems, you can talk about them, but you can really only know it if you experience it. So if you’re wanting to get into learning about the space, working in the space, or just knowing generally more about it for yourself, the best way to do it is have some skin in the game. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and start playing with the apps out there, downloading them on your phone, downing on your computer, going to the websites. Um, there’s so much with web3 gaming too now. There’s a lot to do there, and it’s just vast. And you can’t be good at everything. You can’t become an expert at everything, but you can even within web3, find a niche and dive into that. So, I mean, I know people who work in the industry and they very small sliver that they’ve picked to work on and think about, and that is their sub niche. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it’s something that you can do too if you’re wanting to understand the space a little bit better.

Paul:

That makes sense. If you’re going to try and think like a user, I imagine step one, it may, it follows then that you, you know, become a user and actually experience those for yourself and then talk about other people. And that makes it a lot easier to get into the communities that we were talking about earlier, where it’s easier to join Solana groups if you have interacted with Solana in any way before <laugh>, um, than trying to kind of build from there.

Avani:

Exactly.

Paul:

I know one of the, one of the most common other questions that kind of comes up is finding, uh, clients within the space. Um, and I think it’s doubly hard for designers, uh, in web3 to, to deal with this. Um, I know within web3 in general, finding new projects is already difficult. There are a lot of projects that are started with their own money. They have $200 in there and they’re stretched in on that. This is, like you said, somebody that is, is just starting out or doing this kind of as a, a side project or something and wants to eventually grow it. But finding people, even if you provide something really valuable, um, having them jump on board with that is already difficult. And we’ve been discussing this whole time how UX UI is desperately needed within web3, and it’s slowly starting to, to gain momentum. But combining those two issues makes it seem, uh, overwhelming I would imagine, to try and get people involved and, and finding new clients. How do you go about finding people, um, either locally or now with this global technology on a global scale and working with them to, um, revitalize the, the project and kind of make it the best it can be?

Avani:

Yeah, and there’s so many different ways we’re doing this. Um, number one is developing relationships and cult like continuing to cultivate those relationships. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can meet someone, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be working with them. It doesn’t mean that you’ll ever work with them, but it’s about meeting somebody and saying, Hey, you’re working on a really cool project. Let me learn more about it. Let me see how I can support you. And developing that relationship takes time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I’m doing this with people that I’ve met at Consensus that I met at, um, south by Southwest that I’ve met on Twitter, that I met on LinkedIn and that have come to my website from SEO work that you helped us with Paul. So there are all these different places people are coming. And then referrals from my existing network. Mm-hmm.

<affirmative>, there are all these different places that I have the ability to connect with people in the space. And my job is to, once I have a connection, to nurture that connection. So I might be following them if I met them in person, I will go follow them on Twitter, I’ll connect with them on Telegram, I will follow them on LinkedIn. I will cheer them on as they’re working on the thing they’re working on. And, um, another thing that I do is I’m always looking for companies in this space that have gotten funding recently that are working on a problem that I’m excited about. And I actually have a Google alert set up. So you can set up Google alerts for any type of search results. And anytime there’s a new page that shows up, it’ll go ahead and email you. You can create it on an email, you can send it to a Slack channel.

Um, so I have it come into my inbox and it’s marked as funding or something, I forgot what it’s called, new funding. And every week I will go through that list of results and I’ll go check out the companies, go see what they got in funding, see do we think the project is interesting, and then I’ll go find them on, connect with them on Twitter and LinkedIn and send a message on LinkedIn saying, Hey, I’m so excited you got funding. Congratulations. Hello from Austin, looking forward to cheering you on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so that’s me going and reaching out to people that I may not know and creating that initial connection. And then from that initial connection, that initial connect point, I’m continuing to nurture the relationship, keep in touch with them online, keep in touch with them in person. If they’re living in Austin, and I’m also sharing stuff online, on Twitter and on LinkedIn.

So they’re, they’re reminded that I exist, that I have an expertise in this area, and that they enjoy their interaction with me. So one day when they come across someone with a need for UX help in web3 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they have one name that comes to mind and it’s match a design labs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so that is how it’s a long game. You, it’s not for the fainthearted, it’s not for someone who wants success overnight. It is a long game. And so connecting with these people, doing virtual coffees, in person coffees and, and really that’s the way I started my business is I just started talking to people mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that’s the number one way that you’re gonna be able to get clients, not just for design, really just for anything, get clients, get opportunities, is you continuing to, you’re continuing to build and invest in your relationships that you already have.

And, and it’s not just about taking value, but also providing value to them. So that applies to web3 as well. And the difference is that you’re probably gonna be spending a lot more time on, on Twitter mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you need to be in the conversation. You’ll see people, real builders who are building things, they have their sleeves rolled up and their hands are in the mud, they’re getting dirty. You will see them having in-depth conversations on Twitter every second of the day. Yeah. And when you are right there next to them in the trenches, that’s when you, the designer or whoever it is, will start to be someone that shows up top of mind for them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Paul:

That’s, I I feel like that’s good life advice really <laugh> more than specific to this. It, I mean, it’s worked the exact same way for like advising and consulting. There are mm-hmm. <affirmative> a lot of people that you, yeah. You just build that connection with them. And if it turns into a, um, professional work collaboration later, that’s awesome. But not necessarily going in and trying to hard sell them off the bat. It, it’s just a, Hey, I’m interested in the project that you have. I I really do think that it’s a cool project. Um, and them being able to look at your work and go, oh, cool, you do really good design work or, uh, you’ve worked on these interesting projects in the past and kind of finding that, um, mutual benefit for each other. It, a lot of people think of it as a zero sum game, and they’re like, if, if I get them to to be my client, I win.

And I think that’s, that’s not, not a good way to go about things. It should be helping each other out. Um, you’re, you’re helping them with the design and um, obviously being a, them being a good client for you. Um, but it works that way with nurturing all your relationships and there are mm-hmm. <affirmative> like you said, just being in the space can really help work towards that. Um, I know I had a, a meeting, uh, earlier this week with somebody who reached out to me and they were like, Hey, I see you posting every day. I see the, the content that you’re providing, you engaging in these talks, and I wanted to connect with you because of that. And just repeatedly showing up on people’s Twitter feed or LinkedIn feed or wherever and constantly bringing that value to all sorts of different people and being engaged in the community and engaged in the space can really set you apart from a lot of people who otherwise you might not know their name, just constantly having that, uh, ma design lab’s recognition and them seeing it pop up over and over that may prompt them to go over and check you out.

And now you start that relationship like you were talking about.

Avani:

Uh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It’s like you said, it’s a daily grind. It’s showing up every day no matter what the consistency. And it’s not easy

Paul:

<laugh>, it’s definitely not easy, but it, it does, uh, set your leagues apart and, and make the future work a lot easier.

Avani:

A hundred percent

Paul:

<laugh>. Well, awesome. Thank you, Avani. I, uh, I appreciate you coming out and, uh, joining us here and spreading your wisdom, um, and hopefully inspiring some new people to join into the space as well. Um, and, and really help improve the industry so it can continue to, uh, to mature. I appreciate it.

Avani:

Thank you for having me, Paul. It’s been so great.